Wheels of Fortune

Segment type: non-game religious terminology lookup and follow-up Method: This is a very confusing AI overview from Google. Question (terminology question): Was he a disciple or an apostle? Answer (reported definition): An apostle was a disciple who was chosen by Jesus to spread the gospel, while a disciple was a follower of Jesus who learned from him. Question (judas followup): Can you just Google, was Judas an apostle? Answer (reported judas lookup): Judas Iscariot was one of the original 12 apostles of Jesus Christ.

Title: Keaton Casting Activity premise: there were many roles he almost got but went to someone else. Response context: According to Michael Keaton's IMDb trivia Activity request: I'm going to give you the name of an actor who ultimately got the role. And you will have to give me the movie. Interaction mode: You are against each other. Rules: You're going to get three tries, but you're going to lose a point for each guess. After the first guess, I will give you the year of the movie as a hint. There are both repeat actors and repeat movies on this list. you have to guess the specific one assigned to you. If you guess a movie that is later on the list, you just don't get credit for that. Method: I will just make up a hint on the spot. Answer qualification: I think it's okay if you have a list of the movies open. Scores: Brad: 3; Ryan: 6; Katie: 12

Welcome to Reverse Psychology, the Frasier Rewatch Podcast, where we go backwards through every episode of the show. Tonight, we're covering Season 9, Episode 16, Wheels of Fortune, which originally aired on February 26, 2002. Has Frasier ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight? We'll find out. I'm your host, Curtis Sheck. Joining me as always, it's our resident upside-downer, it's Ryan Sansone! Curtis, it's time again! Let's talk our favorite psychiatrist? One of them, yeah. Also with us is a con artist, it's Bradley Kirkston. Curtis, it's that time again to talk about our favorite person in a wheelchair. I know you're trying to, like, cheap imitate me, but it's way better than your normal intro. Well, thank you, thank you. I just, you know, I always, I think it's a good idea when we start the show with you complimenting me. I think that always puts us in a good headspace, so thank you, Ryan. And I think it's a good idea when you're bringing energy. Well, we can't start the show yet because we've got another guest we have to introduce. What? It is a special guest, Katie McKenzie, for the first time. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Welcome, Katie. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I don't have a fun intro like you guys. I'm sorry, Katie. They're not, they're not normally like this. Yes, we are. Yes, we are. What do you- She knows us. We didn't find somebody that we don't know. I did listen to this podcast before, so I do know that you are normally this weird. Oh, that's good. I didn't know that. That's a genuine surprise. I had to prep myself. No, I did know, Katie, that you knew we were talking Frasier because sitting right next to me is my, I don't know exactly what to call this, a Frasier light that you got me. Yeah. It's currently flashing, and I want you to know it has two sound bites built in. Let's see if this picks up on the mic. All right. Did you hear that? I did hear that. It's great. I think this is like the soundboard that Hyken was using. I don't think it's coming through, at least on my end. I can hear it. I can hear that something's happening, but I can't hear what it's saying. It was Niles' voice, right, Ryan? It was Frasier's voice. Oh, so I guess it's not that clear. Anyway, it's brilliant here, but there's only one button on the front, and I kept trying to turn it on. You have to do that in the back, but I just kept heading the I'm listening button. So I've heard Frasier say that like 15 times already, just because I couldn't work one very simple device. Sounds like you. Well, Katie, I'm curious because this is your first time on the show. What is, if you have any relationship to Frasier, what is your relationship to the show Frasier? I just remember my parents watching it when I was a kid and watching Brie Runs with my dad. A lot of people's parents watch Frasier. So that makes sense. Curtis's parents. Curtis's mom watched it. Did both your parents watch it? No, my dad does not care for it. I was asking the guest, Curtis. Oh, I'm sorry. I know your dad's banned from the TV room. Well, she started by saying her dad watched it, right? Me? Didn't you say parents, didn't you? Oh. Well, both my parents, but I would say my dad watched it more so than my mom. Or he liked it more than me. This is a tough question, but do you know if your dad liked Frasier more or was he a Marty guy? Do you have any idea? I have no idea. Do you think your dad was to be on a future episode of the podcast? I think he's probably asleep by now. Okay, got it. Oh, Brad's been angling for a morning pod for so long. Oh, so long. So long. Never happened to Brad. Suck it. Frasier the morning pod. Katie, would you say primarily it's your parents who like it and you just kind of endured it? Or would you consider yourself in any way a fan of Frasier? You can totally shit on Frasier, by the way. Yeah, we don't care. At least don't hesitate there. I think I want to say like a fan by force. Does that make sense? That's how I feel. I don't not like it. I just only watched it because my parents watched it. Gotcha. Got it. Curt, do you have a similar vibe or no? I always enjoyed it when it was on. And if they weren't watching it and I was slipping through channels and I came upon it, I would stay and watch it and eventually binge the whole thing. Very similar. Yes. Well, before we get into this episode, I do think it'll be fun to discuss one of the people in this episode. We've got a big guest star with Michael Keaton. And as we are all movie buffs, I figure what would be your favorite Michael Keaton character that you would want to be? Katie, you seem well suited to be the first one to answer this question. What do you say? Well, I think the only Michael Keaton movie I have seen is Cars. And he is just a small character on Cars. He's an important character, but oh my God. Whoa. I don't see a lot of movies. I'm a horrible movie person. Do you choose not to watch movies because you don't like them? Or do you just not like run into them? How does this happen? Run into them? Does your dad not put them on? Like what's the problem here? I don't know. Like I feel like growing up we watched more like TV shows versus movies. And there's just so many like classics I've never seen. Oh, you're going to have to name some of the biggest movies that you've never seen. 16 Candles. That's the first one you go to. That's interesting. That's just one that I get harassed about a lot. Maybe try a movie that was released after we were born. Wait a minute, because I've never seen that either. Brad, Ryan, have you seen that one? I've seen that one. Yes. I have not. It's one of the few Brad Pack movies I've not seen. You're in good company, Katie. That's not a classic. That's trash. Nobody likes it. That airs towards females though. Like, you know, not the gender type. That's fair. That's fair. I don't know. I haven't seen like anything. I bet any movie that you're like, everybody has to watch this. I can almost guarantee I've never seen it. Have you seen Step Up to the Streets? Yes. We don't have time for jokes. Everyone's seen that one. How about I ask a real question? Have you ever seen Forrest Gump? Yes. Okay. Surprising. That is surprising. Is that the most famous movie you think you've seen? Probably. Okay. Here's a big false, because I know that you and my wife have watched, I think, all of the Harry Potter movies. Of course. So. But I've never seen like Star Wars. How about Lord of the Rings? Um, I think I did see those. My mom liked those. So it's back to what your parents put on. Shawshank Redemption. Definitely not. Oh, so good. Yeah. We could do this for hours. Let's go. Some of us gotta schedule it, Kate. Is 16 Candles the number one movie you would see, like, if you just had to sit down and watch a movie? Or is there another one on the board? No, I don't know. That's just one that people have harassed me about enough. So that's the first thing I thought of. There's none like on Katie's movie list? There are so many movies on Katie's movie list that I think I just don't even try. Like, I don't even start the list because there's too many. It's overwhelming. Is it like Curtis's movie list where I emphatically hear about a movie and go, oh, I'm gonna put that on an actual list that I'm gonna keep and then just nothing ever gets crossed off of it? Um, it's more so like somebody's like, you need to watch this movie. And I'm like, okay, I'll add it to the list. And then I forget about it like five minutes later and never watch it. Okay, I'll add it to the list is a great way to just dismiss somebody. Like, you don't want to get into it. You don't want to deal with it. You don't want to like talk about it. You sort of, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll add it to the list. That's what I say if anyone approaches me with plans. Like, oh, yeah, I'll add it to the list. I know he's been saying that to me for 15 years. Well, fellas, she's done her part. She said Cars. What's the character's name in Cars? Chick Hicks. I'm sorry, what? Chick Hicks, I think. Are you saying Shit Kicks? Shit Kicks? Isn't it a kid's movie? No, Chick Kicks. Chick Kicks. You're coming across very clearly. You're very clearly saying shit. I'm really not. So she wants to be shit kicked from Cars? What's his name? No, his name is what? I've seen the movie. I now forget. It's like the green car, like the guy that's the bad. I don't know who he is. Yeah, yeah. The old guy, the old champ that we're trying to overthrow, right? Uh, I guess. I think he's the green car. Yeah, yeah. He's got a mustache. Classic. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Chick Hicks, Chick Hicks. Okay, well, Ryan, what about you? What would be your Michael Keaton character? There's only one answer. Why would you pick anyone but Batman? Well, okay, I thought about this. I don't have any interest in being Batman, but I do want to be Bruce Wayne. Yeah, obviously. Wait, no, wait, wait. No, Batman's cool because he's avenging his parents. Bruce Wayne's just living with his parents' death. That's a terrible pick. No, no, no. I don't care about my parents' death. Wow. I'm rich in this scenario. Jesus. Has anybody had more F you money than a guy who can literally dress up as a bat and run around fighting crime? Like, I don't have to spend that money on fighting crime. He watched his parents die in front of him. That's why. What do you mean? You know, you asked me the same question and I did not even consider Batman. I know Brad's answer. If you can get it right, I will give you five Brad points. What is it? You want to be Ray Kroc. Absolutely. Oh, really? Is that the actual answer? No, absolutely not. The perfect pick for you is whoever his character is in Multiplicity. No, he was in my favorite Shakespeare movie, Much Ado About Nothing, and he played Dogberry. I know for a fact you've never seen a Shakespeare anything. No, that's my favorite. I've told you multiple times that's my favorite Shakespeare play. I love Much Ado About Nothing. Okay, I think I've actually seen that one. I just didn't know he was in it. Whoa. That's a surprise. Yeah, he plays Dogberry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're saying Dogberry and are you saying Munch Ado About Nothing? Is this some kind of a parody thing? No, Much Ado About Nothing. He's definitely not saying Ado. He's saying Ado. I'm very confident, Brad, you've never seen this. Katie. Fascinating reveal. Did not see that coming. I think I watched it in high school. Yeah, Denzel's in it. Keanu's in it. It's got a great cast. Is that real? Yeah, that is a stacked cast. I think there's somebody else in it too that's big, but those are the three that are popping out. There's a character named Dogberry. That's wild. There's some Shakespeare characters that are nuts. Emma Thompson, that's the other person in it. Kate Beckinsale. Wow. It really is a stacked cast. Are they doing classic Shakespeare or have they modernized it so that you can understand it? It's pretty classic, but with a little bit of modern mixed in. It was done in 93. I took a Shakespeare class in college, and if there wasn't someone translating every word, it was so un-understandable garbage. It's technically English, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a language far removed from modern-day English. I speak very old-school English. That's just how I speak, so it's easy for me. You speak gibberish. You know who actually speaks like he's from olden times? Frasier. Should we talk about this episode? Yeah, let's do it. Let's go, Frasier. The light is on. I'm listening, Curt. We open with rain clouds over Seattle. Lilith's half-brother, Blaine Sternen, is in town. Frasier is on alert as he is a con artist and a real scoundrel. I think we can all agree it's shocking that Frasier's radio show goes multiple hours. I think he said, I don't know if he specified how many, but he said at least a few. Yeah, I think it's like three or four. Is that why you think Roz started cleaning up while he was still there? She's ready to go. She does that every time. Well, maybe that's why, because it's so long. She's ready to go. It's 100%, yeah. It's like anyone at the end of their shift. I was going to say, when my shift is over, the moment it is over, I am walking out that door. I'm not starting to pack up. 100%. I think realistically, she cleaned up 30 minutes ago, but just for the blocking of the show, they're doing it now. Right. It'd be weird if she was just standing at the door every time. So try to be if I'm wrong. I might be thinking of a different episode, but isn't she also, while they're talking after the show, doesn't she kind of have a stance where she's kind of giving off the vibe like she really doesn't care and she just wants to get the fuck out of there? Yeah. He says to her like, oh, that was just an okay show. And she goes, yeah, they all blend together. Yeah. Didn't he say it was dog shit? He didn't say it was okay. He said it was a real stinker, didn't he? He said something like that was really humdrum or something very frazier-y. Is humdrum medium or is humdrum bad? It sounds like something Scrooge would say. I think it was dismissive. It wasn't like that one sucked. It was more like that one didn't even need to happen. Completely pointless. Yeah, like irrelevant. Yeah. Brad, you're very humdrum. Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's my middle name. Bradley Humdrum Kirkston. It's got a nice ring to it. It does have a nice ring to it. It's much better than your actual middle name. You should change it. Yeah, but my initials are so cool. B-J-K. I can't be B-H-K. You can. I mean, I could, but I'm not going to be. All right. We get introduced to the idea that Lilith has a brother. Half brother. Half brother. But still, that's very surprising. She seemed very much like an only child. Anyway, yeah, we find out about Blaine. Blaine Sternen. As soon as they say the name, it's like, oh, that's like Lilith's name. Oh, that's Lilith's brother. Oh, this is crazy. This is about to be weird. We're not going to meet him at all. Turns out false. We're totally going to meet him. Why did you think we weren't going to meet him? I don't know. It just seems like we were just going to hear about him. Literally, the opening scene of the episode is him being like, okay, everybody, I'm setting up that there's this person in my life. Yeah. Ryan, I will agree. I thought there was a chance we didn't see him until the last scene. They spent the whole episode hyping it up, and then they showed him at the last scene type of thing. Not what we got where he was literally in the next scene, but I could see where you thought that, Ryan. Even next scene, till he shows up, I was surprised he was showing up. That's fair. I think that is fair. I think you're both crazy. I don't think I was surprised even a little bit that he showed up immediately. Yeah, you're crazy. The setup is that he's this con artist. He's this sleazy guy. There's a lot of potential for that to be a lot of fun just from the setup of it. The setup is that a salt server was stolen. It could have been a whole episode looking for the salt server. That did not sound right. Ah, you're going to have to say that word again. Salt server. Why do you say server wrong? Salt server. Got it. Wow, he did it. Apparently, though. He landed the plane, but it was a rocky landing. Not important, but what's a salt server? Very good question. We do see it. We see it, but I still don't know what it is. It's like a vessel for your salt. Curt, what did you think a salt server was? I'm going to be honest with you. I had written down salt shaker in my notes. I thought for sure he was being a prick about a salt shaker. 100%. It was literally that we're going to get to the next scene where we're going to see the salt server and it's like a weird teapot shaped thing, but super tiny with a tiny little spoon that comes with it. Not what I would expect at all. I didn't Google it. That's definitely not a thing, right? That's definitely was just a child's toy. Googling. Oh, that's interesting. So most of these salt server images are basically just cups. It's just like a cup you can put a spoon in and sprinkle salt from. But there is one image that does kind of look, it's an antique salt cellar. What? A what? So these are called salt cellars. C-E-L-L-A-R. Oh. And it kind of looks closer to what he had, which is almost like a teapot shaped thing. This is a rabbit hole we don't need to go down, but I'm fascinated right now. We'll talk after the show because I've now got my mind blown about what a seller could possibly be, apparently. Not the time, Curt. Stay on track. So I think in this scene, the part that I enjoyed the most was when Frasier is describing this con artist and she's like, no, he was very charming on the phone. And he says, Charm is the viscous grease with which he oils his flim flam machine. Talk about classic Frasier. That was like, okay, you were really making an analogy that no one understands, but okay. Yeah. Was that before or after Roz's line? Because I loved hers where she was like, I can't believe I haven't dated this guy. Yes. That's exactly what I was going to say. I love that. So good. And good news for this episode. We have the true Roz character. So Katie, I don't know if you know this, but sometimes they use Roz in ways that are way off the mark from her character. This one we've locked in. This is the Roz that I like to see. Yes. Even though she's in one of two scenes or two scenes in this episode. She's in two scenes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Getting a small amount of good Roz is way better than a lot of bad Roz. That's true. Good point. I also think your average Roz episode is just in three max, right? Like two to three is about the Roz range. Oftentimes she only shows up in like the coffee shop because they have to have some reason for her to be in the episode and they don't have a reason for her to pee at his house. Yeah. Either coffee shop or radio is basically it. Frasier tries to lock down his home, but a package from Blaine has already arrived. His stolen salt server has been returned. Blaine arrives in a wheelchair claiming to have found God, but Frasier ain't buying it. So as soon as we get the box that the salt server is in and they've opened in, they're admiring it. I thought we were doing a Pulp Fiction thing. I was really hoping we wouldn't see the salt server. You're right. It was very, it was like too nice. It was too like genuine. And I was like, something, something weird is going to happen here. They were trying to do the site gag with it being really tiny. I don't like, I don't know. I don't have a salt server. It doesn't, doesn't mean anything to me that's tiny or huge. I thought it got a little weird how Niles got into that spoon. He was really excited for that little tiny spoon. He's going to have a baby in two seasons. So to be fair, he's just, when you have a baby, you get excited for small things, I guess. Don't give him credit for two years from now, baby. It's on his mind. I think they were right to show it because the point of not showing the thing is to let the audience use their imagination to imagine what kind of thing it could be. And I feel like there's no reason to imagine a salt server. You just want to see how dinky and like pretentious it is. So they're fawning over. It looks ridiculous. Okay. But counterpoint, what if we show it at the end of the episode? Like when he gives it back to him, that would have been a way better reveal. So this whole time he's like, butthurt about the salt server, butthurt. He's like, doesn't trust blame. Finally, they make amends. He goes to give it to him. Blaine pulls it out. It's just this little dinky thing. You don't think that'd be better? I don't. You have not won me over. That's disappointing. As Frazier might say, you must think I have turnips growing out of my ears. I don't know what that means, but I thought it was fun. Thank you. What does it mean though? Does it mean you get taken for a ride? Does it mean you're dumb? Does it mean you misplanted your turnips? I don't get it at all. Sounds good saying. So I know you're not a movie buff, but Katie, I'm curious. Sorry for immediately referencing a movie. When you meet Blaine, was there any part of you that was like, oh, cool. That's like a celebrity. I know who that is. That's a real actor. Or were you just like, I don't know. Was he just like a nobody to you? Michael Keaton. I'm talking about Blaine. Yeah, he was definitely a nobody to me. Wow. This is easily the biggest get we've gotten on the show. It could be the biggest get we have the whole run of Frazier. That is not off the table. I mean, like, I know his name. I know he's a major actor. I just, I didn't recognize him. You could have put him out of a crowd. Okay. No. You know what my favorite part about this is? So this is not somebody you care about that you know about. The only reason that I was insistent that we should try to get a guest for this episode was because I thought, like, if we're ever going to get a guest who's less interested in Frazier by itself, like, it's got Michael Keaton in it. Like, that's a fun thing. Like, that'll be a kick for whoever sees this. And we picked the one person who barely knows he exists. Clearly, I wasn't the right guest for this episode. I was devastated. He's like, oh, yeah, classic. A guy in a wheelchair. Solid gut. If the wheelchair was green, you might have recognized him. That was really funny. Yeah, this, like, as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh, my God. I can't believe they got Keaton. By the way, not his name anymore. He's changed it. So that's fun. What? He's Michael Douglas, which is his real name. Oh. Yeah, I did hear that. That might come up later. Well, this must be faith. Oh. Well, this is terribly awkward. I do think that this was a time where he wasn't as, like, popular as he was in the 90s or even today. So, but it still is very surprising. When did Beetlejuice come out? The 90s, early 90s. The 80s, 90s, yeah. Okay, can you actually look that up? Oh, he's in Beetlejuice? He's Beetlejuice. Oh, so I see that. And it keeps getting funnier every single time I see it! Oh, that's surprising. I think Curtis is right. I think it was the 80s. It's fair that you wouldn't recognize him from Beetlejuice. So I feel like you're right, Brad, though, that he did have sort of a lull in his career in, like, the early 2000s. 1988. Brad, you got one job, just IMDB him. I just said, 1988. What was he doing, like, at this time? He was in... He's told me there's just a pure gap, and it's just one appearance on Frasier. That'd be a major. Yeah, in between being in Jack Frost, which I actually like Jack Frost. Jack Frost was pretty good. Yeah, but some people don't like Jack Frost. It was not a hit. Yeah, it was not a hit. He was in literally nothing between that and Cars. He was in A Shot of Glory, which looks like it was terrible, Quicksand, and First Daughter, where he plays the president, John McKenzie. Pretty rough. McKenzie! I think I've seen that one. I'm pretty sure I've seen that one. Did you just watch anything with a McKenzie name? Obviously. No, it has Katie Holmes in it. I was going to say, Katie Holmes is the first daughter. It has a Katie and it has a McKenzie? This is, like, your perfect movie. That movie was made for me. Even when he was in Cars, you don't know him from Cars, you know? Sure. I don't think his career really rebounded until he was in Birdman, where he basically played himself. Birdman. That's a fucking trip. I do want to ask you, Ryan, because you... So, Katie, you may not know this. Ryan is a notorious Marty hater. He does not like the character of Marty. Only because he's stuck. Well, I found his, like, eagerness to see the man stab himself and, like, get it on video. Like, I found that charming in this episode. But what did you think? At this point, after he stabs himself, did you think he's definitely wheelchair bound? Or did you think there's a good chance he's still grifting? I definitely thought he was still a con man. Yeah, that's interesting. Because for me, I remembered enough about this episode to know it was going to end that way. So, I don't know if I could put myself in the mindset of an upside downer who's never seen it. That's exactly what I was going to say. Like, I remember... This is not an episode you forget. So, I remember this episode. So, I agree with Curtis. I knew exactly what was going to happen. Like, you watched it recent enough. You might be able to remember. At this point now, for the last time I saw this episode, it's probably been about four years. So, I don't remember. And you have eidetic memories. So, it should be fine. Again, giving me the compliments tonight. I really appreciate it, Ryan. I'm trying to raise you up, man. I got to tear you down at the end. No, I was erring towards the side of he's a con man. And so, I definitely wanted to see him get stabbed with a real sharp implement. So, I was Team Marty for that. Even if he was, you know, paralyzed and couldn't feel, I would also want to see him get stabbed. Like, that would be a spectacle. So, one thing I did find interesting. I felt like before Michael Keaton came in, it seemed like they knew who he was. Like, Lillie's brother. But then I was surprised when he did come in that they had never met him before. Why? I thought based on their conversation beforehand, they had met him before. Because they all knew who he was. So, I just kind of assumed they had met him maybe at the wedding or something like that. I took that more as, like, Frasier explaining him to them. Not, like, them all talking about him as from experience. Okay. It was very clear that only Frasier knew him. Because otherwise, he's going out of his way to explain things that make no sense. I thought Niles knew him. You said maybe he was at the wedding. Like, the response Lilith gives over the phone, she didn't seem bothered that he's in a wheelchair. And she didn't seem to be close enough with him to know if that was true or not. So, I don't think they're, like, close siblings. Were you surprised to find out, Ryan, that he's a minister now? Like, I'm just looking at my notes. I'm just freaking out that Michael Keaton's shown up. I think I stopped listening for the end of the scene. How about when he says that he faked being Frasier for a year and saw Patience? I didn't see a problem with that. It's not like Frasier helps people. That's fair. We get Daphne starting to get sucked into his world at the end of the scene, right? Very quickly, yes. Very, very quickly. Loved. Yeah. Loved that. In the kitchen, Frasier forgives Blaine on the promise that he will leave. A wrench is thrown in the plan when Daphne invites him to dinner. Yeah, so this is when we find out that he pretended to be Frasier for a year and saw Patience. Which gets glossed past very quickly. I was going to say, I don't think I even noticed that. Like, I don't think I heard that. He does say it very offhand, like he didn't even care. Well, yeah, because again, like, Frasier, he's not a real doctor, despite his quote-unquote degrees. He says a line and then he goes, I can't really talk about it because of patient doctor confidentiality. I was going to jump in sooner, but I wanted to hear you drown. I very much enjoyed that line as well, though. There's a way in which he's writing that line of, like, he could be on the level, but it does seem like he's probably still a con man. But he's just got this level of confidence, which, I mean, con man. But he doesn't seem to give a fuck that he is, like, Frasier's on to him the whole time. Frasier is convinced he's still scamming. And he just brushes past that. He's not bothered at all. He knows he's going to get Frasier in the end. I don't think at any point I believed that he wasn't still a con man. Were you ever closer at any point? Or was it the whole way you're like, con, con, con, I can see this. I can see this coming a mile away. I think the entire time I was like, he's totally a con man. I think at the end of the apartment bit, I was starting to get one over a little bit. And then as soon as we get into, like, the weird auditorium church thing, it's like, okay, obviously this is fake. Yeah. Blaine lays on thick his religious credentials and invites them all to see him preach. He also needs a thousand dollars, but is too slick to ask for it outright. Are they eating dinner here? They are eating dinner. She serves a bunch of food on the table. Daphne does. Do they use the salt server? I hope so. I don't know if it's meant for use. Like, I think Frasier wants it to be an ornament on a shelf or something. Obviously he does, but, like, we totally should have used it here. Yeah, that really would have made the scene if they just busted out the salt server. There should have been a moment where, like, he reaches for it to put salt on his food and Frasier, like, stops him and, like, insists on salting his food for him so he doesn't get to touch the salt server. Well, and also if it was incredibly unusable. That would be fun. I did like when they decided to say grace and Frasier takes off his watch very, very quickly, even though everyone's watching him do it. Nice pun. I also, I like, I like their reaction to grace, too. Oh, yes. Uh, whose turn is it again? How about you just go? Can you name all the apostles, Ryan? I heard him name him. I don't even know if he was correct. I have no idea. I just assumed it was true. I think that part helped to the con, though. I just believed him. You're a godless bunch. I love you. That's, like, a real trivia question, though. You know, like, that does kind of imply that he's perused the Bible. I mean, is that, like, an everyday trivia? Do most people know that? I think everyone knows Judas, right? Like, you know that one. Yeah. Was he one? Originally, right? He's the one who betrayed him. That's the whole point. Correct, yes. I don't think I can name all the apostles. Was he a disciple or an apostle? I don't know the difference. I don't think there's a difference. Really? No. I like Brad the Jew being like, yes, 100%. I know how Christianity was founded. It's been a big issue for our people. This is a very confusing AI overview from Google. An apostle was a disciple who was chosen by Jesus to spread the gospel, while a disciple was a follower of Jesus who learned from him. That clears it up. Thank you, Curtis. This apostle's like an elite disciple. That's someone who's getting the dinner invite. Apostle's like a messenger, and a disciple is like a student. Can you just Google, was Judas an apostle? Yes. Judas Iscariot was one of the original 12 apostles of Jesus Christ. He had a last name. Everyone has a last name. In the Bible? Not Madonna, Brad. It's Epstein. Ooh. Ew. I'm just kidding. Jesus. Jesus. Heaven help me. Curt, will you stop Googling Christianity stuff? It's making Brad weird. Oh, I'm sorry. We get a title card. That's how they talk in Sweden. After Daphne gives Blaine the thousand dollars, Frazier tries to track down his psychiatrist, Dr. Kagan, to discredit him. Roz fucked a preacher. What? That was your best one you've ever done, Curtis. In two and a half years of doing this podcast, that is the best one you've done. So, Katie, you seemed surprised by the Roz part. Did you not remember that opening of this scene? There was this young preacher. He spent hours trying to save my soul. And? And it worked, and now I'm a nun. What do you think, Captain? Oh. Oh, yes. Okay, yes. I would just, your statement took me off guard a little bit. I'm doing a little inferring here. Yeah, yeah. And it goes back to what you guys were saying earlier. It is a great Roz episode, and this line has a lot to do with it. This line's got to be Roz's best line. So far, yeah. No, in the show. I think so. I'm calling it for all 11 seasons. I was going to challenge it with that scene where she's with the naked Niles, but I'm not sure if he has a great line there, just a great performance. Yeah, I think that is probably a better scene, but this is. As a one-liner, this is amazing. This is one of those wild scenes where Roz delivers her punchline and just walks away. She doesn't even leave the coffee shop. Like, she could have left the coffee shop because she has to go somewhere. No, she just goes to the other side of the room now that somebody else is going to talk to Frasier. It's like the most sick hobby thing ever. Right, I'm missing. Where does she go? She just walks away. To the other side of the coffee shop. It'd be one thing if she went to, like, the counter to order or something, but she doesn't even do that. She just walks away. She walks off camera, essentially, so you just don't see her. So she just goes to tell other people, like, I just landed a quip. Were you guys surprised to find out that Daphne paid the $1,000? Oh, I wasn't surprised even a little bit. Like, she seemed like she was going to fall into it. But when they found out the $1,000 was paid, did you think it was Daphne? Yes. Oh. I liked the way they revealed it. I was a little surprised how, like, cool Niles was about it. Like, he really didn't seem to care. I don't think he would ever challenge her. I thought Niles was the one who got sucked in. So I thought it was a fun reveal when it turned out to be Daphne. I thought they were building up to Daphne doing it based on the previous scene, so. Okay, well, cool. You pay attention to the episode. That must be nice. Thank you. A third compliment of the light. You were just killing it, right? I was going to move on to the phone call with the doctor. Yes. Yes. What is this? Who does Frasier call? I guess he calls 411. Is that what they're trying to do? Is it 411 or Niles? 411. He called a phone service, and they're just like, I'll give you all the info you could ever need. Today, if you knew the name was Dr. Kagan and the city he lived in, you'd be Googling. Google. Yeah. And I don't think that would get you all the way there, by the way. I think there'd probably be more than one Dr. Kagan. Right. But he literally dials something. Not enough numbers. I think he just says the city, and then somehow that connects him somewhere, and then he says a name, and suddenly he's connected to a doctor's office. New York? Diabetes repair, I guess. Was that technology we had? Have we regressed as a people? We don't have it now. I'm very confident of that. We have just Google, and hopefully you Googled it right. I don't know. Could I have picked up my phone and said apostle versus disciple and gotten answers? Apostle, city of Chicago. Apostle versus disciple? You just asked Siri, so yeah, you could have done that. That's a really good point. Yeah, Curt, you dummy. The problem is that Siri doesn't understand me, because I have such a thick accent. What would you say your accent is? Mid-western. Awkward. Definitely awkward. Yes, when I think of Curtis, I think awkward mid-western. I just know that Siri never understands me. Where my accent is hip, uh, uh, um, uh, east coast. Yep. Hip, um, um, I, east coast. That's not fun. I almost said hip, middle eastern, and then I was like, nope, that's not me. Whoa. Whoa. I do think that the U.S. needs a middle east, though. It is confusing. We have a mid-west only? What is that? We have a mid-west that's more east. Yeah. Are you saying that because I guess you would technically be the mid-east? Yes. I, I'm in Columbus. I'm in the middle east of the country. I don't understand why I'm considered a mid-westerner. You're still in Ohio. You're mid-west. First of all, you're from Pennsylvania. You are not a mid-westerner. No, I said I'm in. I'm in the mid-west. You weren't raised a mid-westerner, but you are now mid-westerner. You're a mid-westerner by marriage. Definitely. And it's a nightmare. But what I'm saying is we're in the middle east. You keep using the word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Trying to get that going, I guess. I have. It's been very unsuccessful. The other thing about this phone call. So his solution when he's, he's trying to get through to this doctor, he pretends to be from the Nobel Prize Committee. Is that ever going to work? Apparently not. Yeah. I thought at first he was trying to use his name as like a quasi-Seattle celebrity. I thought he was trying to use his name as leverage. But then he decides to just pretend to be from the Nobel Prize Committee. It does seem like that was not the plan. And he switched it in like a minute when he realized. He spiraled. It's fine. We've all done. We've all said things at the end of a phone call that we regret. If you tell me you've never pulled the old Nobel Peace Prize line before, I don't think you've lived, Curt. Well, I think it's objectively true. I've not lived. We've already established him from the Midwest. While Blaine is preaching, Frazier throws him out of his wheelchair to prove him a charlatan. This is the cue for Dr. Kagan to call Frazier back and corroborate the story. A guilt-ridden Frazier offers to match all donations. Whew. Okay. We got to break it down. A lot happens here. Yeah. A lot happened real quick. So he starts out doing his preachy stuff, right? And this is when I knew, okay, he is a con man. Mm-hmm. But then we throw him out of a wheelchair and then you can't, you know, you throw a guy out of a wheelchair, you have to then feel bad for them until you know for sure their legs work. It was a tough place to be in. Yeah. There's no way to win when you throw someone out of a wheelchair. Like, there's no going up from there. Who knew? Presumably he did it with the idea that he was going to, like, get back up and prove that he has working legs. But nobody has to do, like, there's nothing forcing him to stand up in that moment. Right. What did he think would happen? It's very easy to lay on the ground. He thought he would catch himself before he lands. You know, just don't want to smack his face. But he has working arms. Like, he can catch himself without using his legs. Okay. This is a tough thing to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. It was a soft landing for throwing a guy out of a wheelchair. He could hit. He could hit a lot harder. That concludes the Reverse Psychology podcast. We will be shutting it down. It has to be said, Curt. Did it? I don't think it's not about it, but. They do this a very similar bit in Community. And it's much more brutal when the guy gets thrown out of the chair. Well, I don't remember that scene you're talking about, but I do know in this scene, there's not, like, a cut. You see the whole thing. It's all in a wide shot. So, I'm imagining they had to be somewhat gentle because you don't want to be responsible for having harmed beloved Michael Keaton. Everybody's favorite movie star. At that point, you know, it's like maybe he's a con man again. He didn't land that hard. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. This is what I thought. And throwing him out of a wheelchair. I didn't think he was going to, like, stand up and be like, oh, my bad. He caught me. Like, I just assumed he would just stay laying there. Do you think Frazier thought that if he just wasn't in the wheelchair, that was proof that he didn't need it? See? He's just lying there. Not in the wheelchair. He doesn't need it. It's not attached to him. Michael Keaton's on the floor. And then all of a sudden, the phone rings. And we all knew what the phone call was going to be. Okay. But what's happening here? Right? Like, so Frazier calls some made up 411 service. Somehow it locates Dr. Keaton. That's how he gets the number. Right? Like, there's a system in place. And then he tries to call. He keeps getting dodged. Keeps getting dodged. Finally, the guy calls when it's convenient. Whatever. How have they orchestrated this? And or is Michael Keaton talking to him? Like, did he make the call from the ground? Here's what I think is happening. Because I think there's a world in which you could say this is like sitcom convenience that in that exact moment he gets the call. Obviously that. But I think it's part of the con. Oh. I think he said that he got help from this Dr. Kagan. Like, he name drops him knowing that Frazier is going to try to contact him. So he's got somebody in, I think, Arizona? Phoenix is where it was. Laughlin, Nevada. I'm sorry. Laughlin, Nevada. He's got somebody with that name ready to accept that call. And then, like, he has the guy in the room watching and waiting for the cue, which is when Frazier does something stupid. And at that point, he calls Frazier. Ah, makes a lot of sense. There's an accomplice is what I'm saying. Damn. You're really devastated by this theory. It fits. It works. I have no way, I have no holes to poke into it. How did he get on the 411 service, though? Curt, answer me that. Well, now that I say it, I think what probably happened is, because he never got through to Dr. Kagan. He kept trying and trying and got no response. So I don't actually think the 411 service worked. I don't think he got through to anybody. They just, he just assumed Frazier would have tried to reach him. And he doesn't exist. So he knew he wasn't going to get him. And just decided to have somebody call him in the right moment. How did he get a voicemail system in place? Oh, I forgot there was a voicemail. Yeah, you forget how phones work. And have worked for a long time. I didn't know how they worked in 2002, clearly. What was the old times like? I was using my rotary. Was this the era where, like, all you had to do was, like, buy a space in a phone book in Laughlin, Nevada, for a Dr. Kagan? And just set up a phone number with a voicemail and just fake the whole thing? I'll be real honest. I don't know if that was a thing you could do. I don't know if that's a thing you can do now. But I definitely don't know how 411 found it. Makes no sense to me. I do want to back up a little bit. Right before Frazier starts confronting him, they're in this big hotel ballroom. Tons of people have showed up. It's not that big. It's pretty small. It's a massive facility. Just enormous. House of 24 people. And there are 124 people there. And when Frazier stands up to interrupt and he makes, like, a goat noise. He was a sheep. He said they were all sheep, like, following him. Why are you saying goat? It was a religion thing. Yeah. Curtis didn't get it. It wasn't a religion. It was a sheep thing. I didn't hear him call them a sheep. I just heard him bah like a sheep. You heard him bah like a sheep, but you thought he was a goat? Yeah. It's a weird... Don't goats sound like that? No. Isn't that both sheep and goats? I don't know. I mean, I'm feeling stupid because I have been watching Severance and they have goats in that show. You should be stupid. You are stupid. But calling someone a sheeple, that's like a popular thing nowadays. It's more popular to do that now than it was then. Yeah. But Frazier making animal noises is just not something I was expecting. It was jarring. I'll give you that. He seemed, like, very not Frazier-esque. I think that's fair. Yeah. I do agree. He stepped out of himself for a minute. Yeah. Right before tossing a man out of a wheelchair, I think he got right back into character. Very quickly returned to the farm. Did not take long. Marty at one point turns to Frazier and goes, this is why I don't like taking you anywhere. Was it because of the sheep thing or was it because of the throwing the guy out of a wheelchair thing? I thought it was the sheep thing, right? It was before he tossed him out. It was the sheep thing because it was before the wheelchair, I think. Yeah. Did we get a Marty reaction to the wheelchair bit? Because I think we missed out on that. I don't know. I don't remember. I think it was just everybody was just sort of gasping. Yeah. It was just part of the crowd. It wasn't anything unique. I do like the way that Frazier recovers, though. After talking to Kagan and he's immediately on board, he's like, yes, of course, I'll match anything. He immediately goes, brother Niles, you've been richly blessed. Such a funny way to spiral. And then you see Niles take out his wallet and start finding money. He's been caught up by his brother who just threw a man out of a wheelchair. Of course, you have to donate money. There's no option not to. Frazier sends off Blaine with his antique salt server and much adulation. Marty tells Frazier key details from the sermon that prove to Frazier he was had. He runs to the door to see the wheelchair left behind to taunt him. A lot of thoughts here. But I was very mad he gave the salt server back to him. It was just so stupid. I thought he was going to give something else. I didn't think he was going to give the same gift back. It's like the whole crux of why you're mad at him. Just keep your stupid salt server. You already gave him money, like the thing he definitely would want. No one could use his tiny cup. He obviously doesn't care about the salt server. He didn't even know what it was. And he couldn't hawk it because if he could have sold the thing, he wouldn't have it to return. So he's basically just giving Blaine trash at that point. Well, no. Now that Blaine knows what it is, he can sell that. Can he? The criticism was he could have tried to sell it even without knowing what it was beforehand. He did. He couldn't get a buyer because no one knew what it was. No one's going to buy a tiny cup. And a tiny spoon. Call that tiny cup a salt server and it'll fly off the shelf. So yeah, it was weird people like Frasier who were like, oh, I love antique salt servers. That's my thing. Blaine's disgust at Frasier for using a pun. I thought that was a lot of fun. Oh yeah, the holy roller. Yeah. He's just completely just like, okay. Like he's been so cool. He is this entire time. He has kept his school with Frasier. He has managed to like tolerate him and not give away anything. But like what he intends Frasier to see. And in this moment, he's just can't help. But he's just like, Jesus Christ, this guy's obnoxious. Yeah. And I feel like right before that, when he's like, thanks for giving me this donation in cash or whatever. I was like, at what point is that not a red flag to you? Yeah, that's when I was back on board. As soon as they said that, I was like, okay, we're going to see him standing soon. I don't know when. Like if somebody asked me to donate and was like, but it has to be cash, I'd be like, hmm. Okay. To be fair though, back then it would have made more sense. Now it would be crazy. Now it would be like, okay, obviously you're trying to sell me a CD or some crap. I don't know what this is. Then cash was still pretty big back then. I don't know. Even back then people would write checks. Yeah. Especially for a large sum like that. Right. It is weird he didn't write a check. I think the difference though is it was probably all collected in cash. Like it was probably a big pile of cash. It wasn't like money in a bank. I actually think it's worse nowadays because you used to have the excuse of, oh, I don't have any cash on me when like people were asking for money and now they'll be like, I take Venmo. Right. Yeah. I don't know what that is. I'm done talking with you. So yeah. By the way, we didn't talk about it, but the thousand dollars Daphne gave him, does anybody think that was actually for the room rental or was that just more cash he was skimming? It was definitely more cash. This is Brad's specialty, right? Brad, you know how much rooms cost? Hey, he would have been advertising it without having it guaranteed is my guess. He's a con artist. And also the Lord would provide, Brad. You're right. My guess is based on the calculations in my head, I would say that room would go for $613.18 for a four hour rental. But what about in 2002? In 2002, it would go for $313.28. So exact. And wildly inaccurate. I mean, he sounded confident, so I'll accept it. I always sound confident. He's a regular Blenheim. How did he get this many people? People love religion, Bryant. I have a whole career based off of it. I can tell you that's true. I don't think it should be that surprising to us. You're a scam artist. You're going to think you're trying to get people into a church to eventually donate money. Unclear how that was going to work out without him getting thrown out of the wheelchair, but whatever. Let's assume that that was all part of the plan. How do you get people to a church? He's rolling down the streets in his wheelchair. He's be like, I give sermons. I genuinely don't know what you would do. I mean, I don't understand people who go to church, but people do. And people seem real eager to participate in religious services of any kind. This is not going to a church. I can understand that part. That part would be easy. This is not that. This is saying, let's go to a sermon in a hotel conference room. It's fucking bananas. People go to things like this. I don't think this is a thing. What do you mean things like this? There's an entire industry of this stuff. What are you talking about? In churches, though, like in a very specific building. There are traveling like religious acts. What are you talking about? Pretty sure. I don't know. I don't follow it because it's not my thing. It sounds like something that people would accept. Correct. What Curtis is trying to say and doing a terrible job of doing this is there are some congregation stuff that don't necessarily have a home like a church. They rent spaces to do the services. Sometimes they travel into town like this guy would do to get a bunch of people to raise money for their church and to start a chapter in their area. Thank you, Bradley, for being the most Christian person on this podcast. That's what I'm here for. Christianity is my specialty. That was also the most clear Brad has ever been about anything. He has never been more articulate in his life. It was very odd. I no longer have questions. I had like 15 there. I'm just going to just going to leave them all behind. Getting back to the end of the scene. I love how Frazier is sort of reminiscing on what he's learned through this process. And Marty's just like, yeah, don't throw a guy out of a wheelchair. Who knew? That was a funny summary. Why did Blaine leave the wheelchair? I was like, oh, fuck you to Frazier. Yeah, it was definitely that like final FU to Frazier. But he could have, I feel like he could have worked the con. First of all, I have to do is not say any of that stuff to Marty and Frazier would have never been the wiser. Well, all that stuff he said in the sermon, but Frazier wasn't there yet to hear it. Oh, that's interesting. Right? Isn't, wasn't Marty like recapping the sermon? Yeah, because Frazier came in late. Yes. I thought the whole point that Frazier figured this out is because it was the stuff he said to Blaine. Yes. And then Blaine said it to the church. Oh, I missed that part. Yes. From what I've heard, the most successful con artists know when to get out. Like they don't stick around too long and keep the con going. He knows he can't stay in Seattle and he can't keep milking Frazier for very long. He's got his money. He's getting out. And anyone else he cons, he might just quietly leave. But I think he gets a real thrill from taunting Frazier and just wants Frazier to know he was had again. And he knows if he comes back someday, he can get Frazier again because he's done it over and over again and every time he wins. He is dunking on him, isn't he? Wheelchairs aren't cheap though, you know? Probably like stole it from the airport or something. Oh, I like that. And new headcanon. Yep. Lock that in. Stole him from the airport. Frazier plays this out with Marty stuffing his pant leg so he can withstand a pinprick. But Daphne stabs the wrong leg. I love that. I think it was risky. You stuff one leg and then ask somebody to stab you? Like, come on. It is risky. Why would you do that? I still think this is one of the better ones we've had in a long time. Are you kidding? This is easily the best one. Yeah. Marty got injured. Is this your number one right now, right? Easily. I think like even without Marty hate, it's got to be up there. Katie, I don't know how you feel about these. From the upside down, we hate this bit. We call it the scrambled egg scene. It's usually horrible. This one was great. Like during the credits scene? Yeah. It's a no talking bit. They do it in some sort of visual thing. Yeah. And usually they're very, very, very dumb. Okay. We're on a good run though. I think we've had like two or three in a row that are pretty good. Okay. If they're having like three or four that were horrific. So yeah, some that were just like, what are we even doing here? Progress. This one's great. There's hope for the future by going backwards. That they haven't run out of ideas. Well, Katie, what did you think of this episode? How would you rank it or rate it? What is your scale also? I don't know how to rate an episode. Like I was annoyed for most of the episode. You were mad there were no movie stars in it? Right. No, I just like, I feel like it was so easy to see through him that he was a con artist. Oh, because you weren't wowed by the fact that he was a huge movie star. The rest of us, we had stars in our eyes. You're like, obviously it's a con man. Right. I don't know. Like, yeah. I don't know. Like I wasn't enthralled by it. Just imagine if you realized the whole time that was Beetlejuice during the con. You know, I think I would have enjoyed it more if I knew it was Beetlejuice the whole time. That's on Ryan for inviting you but not giving you that context. I did not deep dive that far into Michael Keaton. This movie discovery was fascinating for me. I would have guessed Katie was a movie buff. This was a wild reveal. You never knew this about me? No, I know that you and my wife watched all the Harry Potter movies. I thought, I assumed you were a movie buff. What we watched was Harry Potter and Spice World all through college. Because they're all the movies. What? As far as this podcast knows, those are all of the movies. Yeah. Spice World especially. Not the first time it's come up. We had an entire segment on Spice World. When Netflix was mailing, we had Spice World for an entire month. The whole month. You had Netflix the mailing service. I didn't know. That's shocking. We did in college. It was fantastic. Did you guys have that? I never had it. I never had it. We would do the email for a free month and we would just rotate emails so that we were always on a free month. That's amazing. Way to con Netflix. Good work. And in one month, we had Spice World the whole time. You were annoyed by the episode, but how would you rank it? Can I go on ranking whether I would watch the series again because of it? Absolutely. That's a great ranking. That's a really good ranking. I would say it would convince me to watch more, but it wouldn't convince me to binge the series. How many episodes would you give it based on this episode? Give it another one or two and I would need something to knock my socks off to want to keep going. Which is not what happened here, right? No. I mean, it was fine. Your socks were on throughout this whole show. My socks are on. If you had one amazing episode after this, would you be like, okay, now I'm going to binge or would you want to keep watching a few randoms to see what the average is? That's the trend. Curtis is asking, would you replace Brad? What? Whatever. Oh, I can. Yeah, sure. If I watched the next episode and it really caught my attention, I'd probably want to binge the whole thing. I'm not a movie person, but I am a horrible binge watcher. Like if I decide I'm watching a series, I am 100% committed and I will watch it every minute of my free time. I would say you're a very good binge watcher then. I would not say you're a horrible one. Well, I'm horrible that I literally do nothing else. I watch it in the morning when I get ready for work. I watch it on my lunch break. I watch it the second I get home until I fall asleep. You're in good company. I will watch 10 seasons of one show in a week just because that's what I do. That would not work for the show, but that is interesting. I can get into a binge, but that's next level. I become hyper-focused on it. That's why I don't watch a lot of shows because that's what I do. Fair. Yeah, it becomes like a problem. It is. It is a problem. Like I gotta go to work. I'm trying to figure out how this show ended. Right. Well, Brad, do you have a problem? Yeah. I mean, I really liked this episode because I love every episode that I can show off my vast knowledge of Christianity. That's weird. The weird reveal. So I'm going to give this a solid A. I liked the episode. Even though I knew what was going to happen and it was obvious what was going to happen, I genuinely liked it. Wait, wait. Are you saying you knew what was going to happen because you've already watched it? Or you knew what was going to happen the first time? That doesn't count. Well, you know, sorry. Those are the rules, buddy. I do think there's some value to rewatchability. Yeah. So I'm going to give it an A and then I'm going to pass it over to my friend Curtis who's going to tell me what he gave it. I gave this one a 29 out of 67. So it's pretty average. I didn't think it was anything special despite the stunt casting. This one landed better than some assembly required. Not quite as good as Kissing Cousins. Did you say 29? I think that's a little low. Yeah. You just went on a run of giving everything 14 and this time this was the episode you gave 29. You know, I always rank these right after watching the episode. I don't like take a beat to really reflect on it. And when we talk, oftentimes I'm like, oh, maybe I feel differently than this. But in the moment, I can just tell you like whatever I was feeling as I watched it, I thought this is fine. This is good. I'm enjoying this. But it didn't. It did not knock my socks off. Katie, my socks are firmly on. Ryan, how about you? Wear your sock. I am absolutely gobsmacked by what Curt said. Nonsense. I can understand where Katie's coming from. She didn't know who Michael Keaton was. Whatever. This episode was great, especially given what we've been dealing with. But you look at all the metrics, right? Like there was a very big swing. We throw a guy in a wheelchair to the ground. The episode's funny all the way through. The writing's good. We've got all the characters kind of locked in. Best Roz episode. Maybe not Best Roz episode. Best Roz line. At least top two Roz episode. Marty, great episode. Frasier, great episode. Niles, great. Daphne, great. Every single person clicked. Daphne's great because she fell for a scam. What do you mean? Yes, it was perfect. Oh my God. Such a good use of Daphne. She had a real role in this episode. And there's some episodes where she's second fiddle. It was fun to watch her go down. Like it was fun to watch her get caught. Yeah. She helped the plots move forward. And there's fucking Michael Keaton, Curt. What are you doing? 8.6. I think I'm slightly lower than you, Brad, but not much. I think you're pretty much right on the money. Curt's lost his mind. Yeah. Let's not pretend I ever had it. You didn't find it tonight. All right. Oh, you reflect on how poorly you make decisions. Please, for a minute. I just told you I don't reflect. I just rank it and I move on. It's not been that big of a problem till tonight. According to Michael Keaton's IMDb trivia, there were many roles he almost got but went to someone else. I'm going to give you the name of an actor who ultimately got the role. And you will have to give me the movie. It's a game we're calling Keaton Casting. Oh, good man. Are we a team or are we against each other? You are against each other. Well, this is going to go great for me. You chose this game as soon as you found out Katie hates movies. I don't hate movies. I've just never seen anything. She told me this via text earlier today when she saw what the segment was. She's like, I don't watch movies. So I gave her the name of the actor. So she's seen the actors. She's got the opportunity to Google some movies and find out some actual movie names so she can actually play. I think I've even seen a handful of them. Okay. What's going to happen? You're going to get three tries, but you're going to lose a point for each guess. After the first guess, I will give you the year of the movie as a hint. Other than Brad, who does that help? Well, one word of warning. There are both repeat actors and repeat movies on this list. Sounds about right. I am at cards. But because I've linked them to years, you have to guess the specific one assigned to you. If you guess a movie that is later on the list, you just don't get credit for that. Bluff. You'll be happy to know I don't understand the game, even though we've already played this once. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I had to change this one a little. This is a little bit different than what we did last time. Good. It makes no sense. I can't wait to win. Katie, you're going to go first. Seriously? Yeah, dude. What? Why wouldn't you start with one of us? It's going to be fine. Everything's fine. Katie? Just pick a different person. It's just going to happen. Okay. Whatever. I'm ready. I'm going to get it. Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp. The only movie I know Johnny Depp is in. Oh, actually, I know a lot of movies he's in. But the obvious is Pirates of the Caribbean. Right. Three points. You got it right. We're trying to figure out what Michael Keaton is up for. He got it right. I'm a she, but thank you. Oh, I didn't know. She. Brad doesn't see gender. Yeah, I don't see gender. Yeah. How This Works, you are going to guess the movie that Michael Keaton was supposed to be in. But somebody else got guessed. Yeah. So he was supposed to be, well, he was considered for Captain Jack Sparrow. He would be good, though. Yeah. Johnny Depp is a far better Captain Jack Sparrow. Of course. Johnny Depp's perfect for it. We know that. We know that now. But at the time, I could see why they'd go Keaton. He'd be a perfect pick. Yeah. If you didn't know Johnny Depp was a perfect drunk pirate. Right. Nobody was expecting Johnny Depp to act the way he did in that movie. In fact, they were really, really concerned and wanted to fire him because they were like, what are you doing? You're acting like a lunatic. He was so good, though. Yeah, it worked out. All right. Brad is your turn. Okay. This is about to get way harder. Johnny Depp. Edward Scissorhands. Incorrect. Oh, good guess, though. I will give you the year. The year was 2005. Ooh. Johnny Depp had stopped doing movies in that year. Yeah. I'm going to, oh, 2005. It's going to be something really weird, I think. That's why he chose it for you, bud. Oh, um, Pirates of the Caribbean? Oh, uh, you know that was already taken, right? You know I just guessed that. Well, you said there's multiple times. So he's talking about Pirates of the Caribbean, you. That is a valid point. You didn't say Pirates of the Caribbean 2. You just said Pirates of the Caribbean. That might be Brad's best joke he's ever made. It counts. You've lost another point. They couldn't get John Depp for the two, so they hired Michael Keaton. All right. What's your third guess? Oh, I thought I'd get another hint. Yeah, what's the bonus for the third guess? I got to get another hint. But I don't have one. What's the format, Curt? This is the Curtis. So you give the year as a hint that nobody knows, and then you have nothing else? Oh, Katie, welcome to Curt's Games. They're fucking madness. This is every goddamn time. I will just make up a hint on the spot. Yes. It is a remake. Why did you think we wouldn't need a hint on the third guess? What were you thinking? I'll go with Little Ranger. Incorrect. Oh. It was Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I forgot about that. He was supposed to play Willy Wonka. Totally forgot about that. Oh, yeah. That did happen. Ah. Yeah. All right, Ryan. You've got Eddie Murphy. Oh, I really thought I was getting Depp. He's been stockpiling Johnny Depp movies. I had to think of them all. We just went through most of them. Okay, obviously Norbit. No, it was not Norbit. 1984 was the year. Oh, that's earlier than I expected. Was that Trading Places? Ooh, really good guess, but no. That's what I was going to go with. That was not the movie. Okay, give me your made-up third clue. It is set in California. Oh, it didn't help. I think I know what it is. Eddie Murphy set in California. Was that, what's the... The Beverly Hills Cop? Correct. He was going to be the black cop? Isn't race like a super important bit in that whole movie? See, the movie would have been a little different. Yeah, I think the movie changed a lot when Eddie Murphy came on board. It'd be Keaton and the guy who didn't believe in Santa Claus from Santa Claus? Isn't that that movie? Oh, I know you're about it. Jet. Jet. Jet. Yes, yes. Judge? Yes, Judge Reinhold. My name is Judge. Yes, Judge Reinhold. Yeah. Would it be the two of them? That doesn't make sense as a movie. All right, well, whatever. All right. You'll never get to see that version. Katie, it's up to you again. Mel Gibson. Yeesh. Brad, do this with me. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. I think the only movie I can think of with Mel Gibson is What Women Want. Ooh. That is objectively an insane thing to say. It's a great guess. Honestly, a really good guess, but not correct. A very reasonable guess, but the only thing you know Gibson from is What Women Want. I think so. Okay. Well, that was a little too recent. This was Skipper a Year. From 1987. Perfect. Oh, 87. Love. Actually, for people that even know movies, I don't think that helped. No. I don't know. I can't. Well, just say a movie you've never seen before that you think is vaguely old. What else is he in? Nothing. Just What Women Want. That was his only film. I don't know. I got nothing. Give a third clue, Curt. Third clue is... Besides the year, you psychopath. The title of this movie is another way of saying A Deadly Gun. Oh, nice. I did think that's where we were going. A Deadly Gun? It only makes sense if you Google them at all. I mean, I don't know how else to feed it to her, so... It's a very game show clue. I don't... Katie, does it help? The fourth movie in this franchise is the first R-rated movie I ever saw in theaters. Does that help? Ooh. So there's a lot of them. There's at least four of them. I think there's only four. You haven't seen a lot of them. I was in fifth grade when the fourth one came out, by the way. And I'm older than Katie. Yeah. I have no idea. I got nothing. Does lethal weapon mean nothing to you? Oh. I was trying to think of something like The Deadly Gun. I'm like, what's another word for that? But I got nothing. I think it's okay if you have a list of the movies open. I wish you would have told me that ahead of time. I think we all agree that the spirit of this game is to torture Katie. Listen, I would like to point out that in the first round, I'm the only one that got it on the first try. You did very well. That is true. You're nailing it so far. Also, if you do lose this game, you have to watch all of the movies on this list. I'll put them on my list. Exactly. All right. Brad, your turn. Tom Hanks. I'm going to go with a random pick here. I'm going to go with Philadelphia. Interesting choice. That is random. Incorrect. The year was 1984. It's like a very early Tom Hanks. A big? Great guess. Also wrong. Right on the money walk. So the hint I will give is that I have talked about this movie on the podcast. Well, Curt, we hang on every word you say. I said this is a movie our parents' generation seemed to think was a big movie for some reason. I have no. What a weird hint. What a strange thing to throw out there. Was that a TV show? Whatever. I'll go with. No, it wasn't a TV show. I'll go with Turner and Hoot. Oh, that's a good movie. Incorrect. This was Splash. Did I get a chance to steal? I was going to try to steal. Okay. Were you going to say Splash? No, I don't even think that's a real thing. I thought that was a joke thing from Only Murders in the Building. Now I remember you talking about it. Now I remember that. Yes. Ryan, you've got John Candy. Ooh. Okay. He died pretty early in my life, so it's going to be older. I'm going to say trains, planes, and automobiles. Very good guess. Incorrect. The year was 1984. 1984. That's when I assumed that movie came out. That was like a 90s film, I think. No. It was 80s. That throws out all of my guesses. I don't know any movies other than that from the 80s from him. I think he was in the Uncle Buck movies. I think Uncle Buck. Another solid guess. Another incorrect one. This is a movie that I've mentioned on the podcast. Splash. Damn it. Splash. Your third hints are the worst. Oh my God. Do you want to quote yourself this time, Curt? I chose not to. I knew as soon as he said John Candy it was Splash 2. Oh, have you seen Splash? Of course I've seen Splash. Oh, I forgot you're from our parents' generation. Thank you. Katie, it's back to you. The name is Keanu Reeves. Um, okay. You don't watch movies, right? What's your relationship to Keanu Reeves? Well, until I Googled him today, I don't think I could have named a single movie he was in. Katie. Oh my God. What? It's really shocking. He is. Why are you surprised? Like, at this point in the pod, how are you still surprised by that? Like, Mel Gibson, I gave you. I was like, yeah, I guess that makes sense. You don't watch movies. Keanu feels like unavoidable. Like, he's a icon right now. This is crazy. Can't wait to hear these guesses. Um, well, the top one that I remember from Google today is Speed. Uh-oh. Good guess. Good guess. Katie, you are smoking them. Another first try, right? Yes. Could you imagine if Michael Keaton was in The Matrix? It would be a way different movie. Oh, God. Brad? Yep. You're up. You've got John Travolta. Mm. Yeah, clearly I have to go with Battlefield Earth. It's a weird first guess. Really weird guess. He made that movie. That was John Travolta's movie. Oh, you know, I had to bring out Battlefield Earth at some point. It is not that. The year was 1995. Paul Fickson? Mm. Another great guess, but incorrect. What's the other one? 1995? Okay, give me the hint. What's the other one? What's the other John Travolta movie? He plays an angel. No, no, no. It's not that one. I'm just going to let you know. Brad's got to get some points on the board, so I'm trying to figure out the best way. I will say this is a more obscure one, probably. It depends on what you think obscure is, because my movie is very, very famous. My guess is an extremely famous movie. I'm between two, but I want to see what the hint is, because I think I know what it might be, but... It's the opposite of Gott Tali. Okay, well, get shorty. Okay, thank you. I wasn't sure if you've heard of it, so I was just trying to be helpful. The impetus clue ever. Is get the opposite of Gott? It is not. That's... I thought it was going to be, look who's talking. What would be the opposite of get, though? I couldn't think of something. Give, you idiot. Oh, that's a great point. Ryan, why don't you go? It's your turn. Harold Ramis. Oh, I only know him from Ghostbusters. And you are correct, sir. All right. Katie? Bill Murray. Bill Murray. Katie, please tell me you don't know who Bill Murray is. Wait, wait. Ryan, what was the name of the movie you said? Uh, when? Ghostbusters. Uh, Katie, Bill Murray. Well, Bill Murray's also in Ghostbusters. That is correct. He's just giving you the points. No, shit. Craig, your game's flawed. See, the good thing is, guys, is that I know so little about movies that I'm not going to overthink it. I'm just going to pick the top build thing for each actor. You are correct. Bill Murray was in Ghostbusters. And I will continue to overthink it. Who'd I got, Curtis? Bill Murray. Ooh, um, so many good choices. Um, I'm excited for the random Brad Bill Murray pick. I would have picked something else, but then he brought Ghostbusters back up, so. Thelie, I have to go Charlie's Angels. Okay, I'm just going to remind you what Katie just said. She just picks the top Bill thing, and it's right almost every time. Incorrect, not that. 1993. I think I know what this is, actually. Groundhog. Groundhog Day, you with that boring? I didn't, I did not choose these. These are roles that he almost got. I don't know what to tell you. Should have been Charlie's Angels. Ryan, I don't know if you knew this. Michael Keaton is from your hometown of Pittsburgh. Of course I know that, idiot. He was up for a part that ultimately went to another Pittsburgh native, Jeff Goldblum. What was the movie? Really did not know that. Is it Wicked? Is it Wicked? I don't know. Kidding. I only know Goldblum for Jurassic Park. That is not the answer. This was 1986. Uh, the Jurassic Park prequel. Uh, okay. I can do this. I literally don't know any movies he was in before Jurassic Park. Uh, I'll just go with an old movie that was probably famous. What's the one? Big Trouble in Little China? Is that a movie? No. I don't think he's in, it is a movie. I don't know that he's in that. He might be. Um, but that is not the answer. All right. Your, your final hint. Give me a Curtis quote about him. I have a Curtis quote. The opposite of a. You don't know opposites, you idiot. The opposite of. No, that's a bad. That's not helpful. It involves a bug. Oh, the fly. Correct, sir. All right. Real quick. I'm just going to do a little lightning round of trivia. Katie, Michael Keaton is a stage name because his real name is taken. Name the actor. Michael Douglas. Correct. Somebody said this earlier. Thank you to whoever said that. You're welcome. Brad, what beloved Pittsburgh institution gave him his start in show business? The Pittsburgh Steelers because they're a dance act. Incorrect. It was Mr. Rogers. Oh, that's surprising. I didn't know that. That's great. Can you talk about that more importantly than him being from Pittsburgh is that Michael Keaton went to Kent State? What? What? I actually think I did know that, but I forgot about it. So thank you, Katie. That's never once been mentioned. Did you not do your research? People are always like Drew Carey got kicked out of Kent State. I've never heard once heard Michael Keaton went there. When we went to Kent State, it was during his lull. Nobody cared about him. I don't know. My dad told me that. So if it's wrong, that's on him. Oh, we're claiming him. That's right. Even if it's wrong, I'm telling everyone. Oh, it's right. He graduated the class of 1969. Wow. Yeah, class. All right, Ryan. Final trivia. An avid fan of the Pittsburgh Steelers, he grew up about five miles from former Steelers coach Bill Cowher's hometown of Crafton, PA. The question is, how many times did the Steelers win the Super Bowl? You son of a bitch. You son of a bitch. The answer is six, but Curt likes to say three just to fuck with you. I am sorry, sir. The correct answer was four. You lose that point. Okay. All right. The total. Brad coming in a distant last at three points. Ryan, a respectable six points. And Katie, the woman who doesn't know movies, knocking it out of the park with 12 points. Oh, yeah. Amazing job, Katie. Thank you. Thank you. Ryan, why don't you tell us what to expect next week when we cover the previous episode at season nine, episode 15, The Proposal. Uh, Niles is finally ready to tie the knot at a time that would make no sense. That is an interesting twist at the end of that. I, it doesn't really make sense for him to propose to Daphne. Like timeline wise. So I, but what else could it possibly be? Right? Like we're this close to him getting married. I don't know. I would love it if the episode called The Proposal is not when Niles proposes to Daphne. That'd be wild. It's probably about Frasier, right? Like he probably proposed something like very Kim Winston-esque, right? Like we'll have a proposal, we'll work something out. But I, I couldn't possibly come up with what it would be. Yeah, it's fine. It's going to be Niles. But in any event. I don't think it is. I, why, why, why would it be here? What is it? Episode 16? Uh, 15. We're going to go from episode 15 proposing to he gets married at the beginning of next season. I don't know. Does that, that seems too, even for like the Frasier timelines, that feels fast. Bear in mind, they didn't, they didn't have a planned wedding at that point. They, they decided to rush it and elope. So it's not that crazy. They had a plan. They, they scrap it. Yeah, but I'm saying like that it's not that long after the next episode that they get married. It's crazy when you consider they got married faster than they intended to. Anyway, that will do it for us. Special thanks to Katie for joining us. Thanks for having me guys. It was fun. We're sorry we made you answer questions exclusively about movies. Listen, I'm just thrilled that I kicked your ass in this game. Oh yeah. Curt, what was the final score? You didn't go through that. He did go through that and I kicked your ass. Is that a joke? Are you joking? Oh, I kind of phase out when Curt talks. You'll hear it on the Relo. Thanks to Gavin McLeod for our theme music and thank you for listening. I suppose you don't really care if this podcast is successful. You would never take five minutes out of your precious day to go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. You don't use Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram, or TikTok. You aren't curious what happens if you search for Reverse Psych Pod. Lord knows you can't be bothered to shoot us an email at reversepsychpod at gmail.com. For myself, for Ryan, for Brad, and for Katie, good morning Laughlin, Nevada. I hate you. This is another really... Sorry, Katie, you can go. That was me. What? I was making noise. Oh, sorry. I thought... It's really hard to tell you two apart. That's what we've been saying for years. For years. I don't know how to take that. It's a compliment to you. Oh, okay. I have a blast of a trade with that. I think we all have. I don't know.